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This past summer, we went to a nearby bat cave at dusk (said to be home to the world’s largest bat colony) to watch them emerge. What a stunning display of God’s creation! We were told to be very quiet, so as not to disturb the bats. Just barely could we hear the whisper of their wings. I always thought they flew out in one big fury, but not so. Rather, they emerge in successive waves of spirals, beginning at the mouth of the cave, swirling therein for quite some time to produce a sort of convection of warm air which assists in their being caught up into the sky. In totality, it takes a couple hours for all the bats to exit the cave. Who knew?!
Thanks for sharing your experience. As I read your description of “successive waves,” “spirals,” and “convection of warm air which assists,” I could only think of one word…
DESIGN.
How anyone can think that we evolved from a Moganucodon is beyond me.
Hey Chris. Read this today as I was studying Rev 19 and 20. You might appreciate this as much as I did. Take a look when you get a some spare time. Very interesting read. Wasn’t sure where to leave this for ya, but figured you could delete this comment when you get it if you need to, or move it to an appropriate spot. Have a good day! We’ve got 50 mph wind gusts here…so will be maddening!
Hope all is well there. Thanks for the link. As it is quite lengthy and as I’m experiencing a bit of depression (nothing like last year), I may not get to it for awhile. Thanks for your understanding and thanks for knowing that this portion of scripture has particular interest to me.
Well…I started the article and have decided to give you an “as I go” opinion.
I found it interesting, on the first page, that those identified here as Amillenialists “reject the natural reading of the text.” Why do they do this? I’m sure I will find out.
At the bottom of the first page (185), I really got a surprise. It says:
Inaugurated eschatology emphasizes Jesus’ victory over the powers of evil at the cross.
Since that monumental event, described so dramatically in Rev 12, Satan has
been bound and the saints have been reigning (Rev 20) (Italics mine)
So Satan “has been bound.”
If this is the case, what about Ephesians 6? What about 1 John 5:19?
Unless I am really missing something, the first page (185) makes statements that would conflict with much of the New Testament.
Nothing’s better for depression than burying your head in a book right? lol. You hang in there Chris. When I used to get like that, it seemed all I could do to smash it down was read, don’t know if you’re the same way or not. I think it was getting my brain busy so I couldn’t ponder other things that just made things worse. I used to tell my mom, nothing better than a beer and the Bible when you’re feeling down. 😉 Anyway, point is, I know where you’re coming from…so know that I understand and know my prayers are for you and Hang in there!!!
I didn’t even realize how long this article was. I couldn’t put it down. Ouch. Sorry about that!
lol…that’s what the article is about. You have to finish it first. I struggle with the inconsistancies with all views, as I’ve mentioned before and have been trying to see where each view has problems. This article will start with amillenial problems, then get to premillenial problems…there are problems in both views…then it comes up with a theory at the end that actually makes some sense, maybe a little better, I don’t know. I’m still chewing on it, but what I wanted to share more with you was the end of the article…let me tell you which pages those are in case you want to skip and read that first so you know where the good parts are…starts on page 207…very very interesting.
I wanted to share since I know you have been studying end times stuff. It’s really the stuff on 207 that struck me as the rest of the paper wasn’t anything new to me as far as both views go, but page 207 was the start of something good, I think and maybe it might be helpful. Don’t know.
Times like this, I so much miss copy and paste!!!! I retyped those pages from the PDF so you didn’t have to find what I was talking about…so here they are for you to chew on. Just more stuff to put in your brain right? 🙂
Starting from page 206 in the above link Amellenialism reconsidered:
“Opposing amillennialism are several forms of premillenniaism, including the historical and dispensational views, and postmillennialism, which Riddlebarger ably critiques in his book. Following is one form of premillennialism that appears to eliminate significant problems inherent in the alternate views:
1. Prior to the coming of Chist, demonic spirits gather the forces of evil to fight the batte of Armageddon (Rev 16:12-16). Jesus appears with the armies of heaven to vanquish his enemies (19:11-21-a depiction of the second coming of Christ).
2. At the second coming of Christ, the righteous dead are resurrected from their “sleep” in the grave and are “caught up to meet the Lord in the air,” along with the righteous living (1 Thess 4:13-18). All are given immortal bodies (1 Cor 15:51-54) and ascend to be with Chist in heaven (John 14:2-3), where they reign with Christ (Rev 20:4). This is the “first resurrection”, a bodily resurrection of all the righteous dead. The “priests of God” (v.6) consist of the righteous of all ages. The millennial reign of the saints is in heaven.
3. At the same time, the wicked living are “slain by the brightness of His coming” and by his word, “the sword coming out of His mouth.” Their dead bodies lie on earth, to be consumed by vultures (2 Thess 2:8; Rev 19:21).
4. The thousand-year reign of the saints in heaven consists of a work of judgment (Rev 20:4, alluding to Dan 7:22; cf. 1 Cor 6:2-3), perhaps examining the books to determine the justice of God’s judgments and admitting and excluding people from heaven. The saints may even have a part in sentencing the wicked.
5. The earth is in a “abysmal” state. The “great earthquake”, hail, and wrath accompanying the second advent have brokn down the cities, devastated the earth, and slain all its inhabitants (Rev 16:18-21;cf. Isa 24:19-22; Jer 4:23-27). Satan if figuratively “bound” on this planet (Rev 20:1-3), whih has been reduced to its original state of primeval chaos (Rev 2:1-2 corresponding to Gen 1:2). He can no longer deceive the nations because the wicked are all dead and the righteous are all in heaven. He is receiving the first part of his sentence: a thousand years of solitary confinement to think about his rebellion and anticipate future judgment.
6. At the end of the thousand years, the New Jerusalem, with God and the saints in it, descends to earth (Rev 21:2; 20:9). The wicked dead of all periods of history are raised to receive their final judgment (20:13,12). Satan, now loosed from solitary confinement by the resurrection of the wicked, and finding his hopes of conquest revived by the vast hosts on his side, deceives them into attempting to conquer the saints in the “beloved city,” the New Jerusalem. Then God, on his great white throne, appears before them and judges them according to their life records written in the books (vv. 11-13). Fire, which purifies the earth comes down from heaven and devours them all (vv 9, 14-15). Hell no longer exists, nor do sin and sinners, death, pain and crying (21:4)
7. God re-creates “a new heaven and a new earth” and dwells with his people forever (21:1-3). The universe is clean.
This view is elegant in its simplicity. The “souls” who reign with Christ a thousand years (20:4) are the saints who were resurrected or translated at the parousia. This view avoids the problem amillennialists encouter when explaining how Satan has been bound for the last 2,000 years when he appears to be very active. It also avoids the problem premillennialists have in explaining how unregenrate people can live together on earth with resurrected saints during the millennial reign of Christ, and how war can erupt again at it close.”
O.K., I’ll share one question I had immediately. Rev. 20:7-8 makes it appear that above summary of the millennium cannot be correct. After the thousand years, there are still thousands on earth (nations) that Satan will deceive.
I’m thinking terms like deceived the nations which are IN the four corners of the earth and the idea of they went UP on the breadth of the earth might be why the proponents of this theory are thinking these might be the souls of the resurrected wicked or maybe actually resurrected wicked that are once again deceived, rather than living people who haven’t died yet. It kind of sounds like these guys are coming up from sheol or something. That’s how I understood his thinking anyway. I’m still chewing on it too Chris.
excatholic4christ
Tom has a loving heart for Catholics and his blog is an attempt to help those in Catholic churches understand that we are saved by grace alone. He blogs on a variety of topics.
The Domain for Truth
Slimjim’s “about” states: “(Jim Lee) is a pastor. He is a faithful servant of the church and his Saviour. Although young in age he is trying to be an apologist for the faith. “
The Hope Blog
Former Christian Talk Show Host, Ingrid Schlueter’s blog
The Narrowing Path
A blog to help Christians in Australia connect the dots…(it’s helped me here in the “good” ole U.S.A.)
Chris,
That video was absolutely breathtaking—thanks!
Wow, even bats pollinate!
Merry Christmas to you friend,
Bruce
Hi Bruce,
I was surprised when I saw the bats, too. I’m glad you stopped by and took the time to see the video. What an endlessly creative God we have!!!
Thank you for the warm wishes. I, too, wish you a Merry Christmas.
God’s blessings…
Chris
I watched it too. AWESOME!
This past summer, we went to a nearby bat cave at dusk (said to be home to the world’s largest bat colony) to watch them emerge. What a stunning display of God’s creation! We were told to be very quiet, so as not to disturb the bats. Just barely could we hear the whisper of their wings. I always thought they flew out in one big fury, but not so. Rather, they emerge in successive waves of spirals, beginning at the mouth of the cave, swirling therein for quite some time to produce a sort of convection of warm air which assists in their being caught up into the sky. In totality, it takes a couple hours for all the bats to exit the cave. Who knew?!
Hi Pearl.
Thanks for sharing your experience. As I read your description of “successive waves,” “spirals,” and “convection of warm air which assists,” I could only think of one word…
DESIGN.
How anyone can think that we evolved from a Moganucodon is beyond me.
Always a pleasure.
God’s blessings…
Thank you!
You’re welcome, Dawnmarie.
I hope you have a great day in the Lord.
God’s blessings…
Hey Chris. Read this today as I was studying Rev 19 and 20. You might appreciate this as much as I did. Take a look when you get a some spare time. Very interesting read. Wasn’t sure where to leave this for ya, but figured you could delete this comment when you get it if you need to, or move it to an appropriate spot. Have a good day! We’ve got 50 mph wind gusts here…so will be maddening!
http://www.auss.info/auss_publication_file.php?pub_id=1101&journal=1&type=pdf
Hi dawnmarie,
Hope all is well there. Thanks for the link. As it is quite lengthy and as I’m experiencing a bit of depression (nothing like last year), I may not get to it for awhile. Thanks for your understanding and thanks for knowing that this portion of scripture has particular interest to me.
God’s blessings…
Hi Dawnmarie.
Well…I started the article and have decided to give you an “as I go” opinion.
I found it interesting, on the first page, that those identified here as Amillenialists “reject the natural reading of the text.” Why do they do this? I’m sure I will find out.
At the bottom of the first page (185), I really got a surprise. It says:
Inaugurated eschatology emphasizes Jesus’ victory over the powers of evil at the cross.
Since that monumental event, described so dramatically in Rev 12, Satan has
been bound and the saints have been reigning (Rev 20) (Italics mine)
So Satan “has been bound.”
If this is the case, what about Ephesians 6? What about 1 John 5:19?
Unless I am really missing something, the first page (185) makes statements that would conflict with much of the New Testament.
Stopping for now…
Nothing’s better for depression than burying your head in a book right? lol. You hang in there Chris. When I used to get like that, it seemed all I could do to smash it down was read, don’t know if you’re the same way or not. I think it was getting my brain busy so I couldn’t ponder other things that just made things worse. I used to tell my mom, nothing better than a beer and the Bible when you’re feeling down. 😉 Anyway, point is, I know where you’re coming from…so know that I understand and know my prayers are for you and Hang in there!!!
I didn’t even realize how long this article was. I couldn’t put it down. Ouch. Sorry about that!
lol…that’s what the article is about. You have to finish it first. I struggle with the inconsistancies with all views, as I’ve mentioned before and have been trying to see where each view has problems. This article will start with amillenial problems, then get to premillenial problems…there are problems in both views…then it comes up with a theory at the end that actually makes some sense, maybe a little better, I don’t know. I’m still chewing on it, but what I wanted to share more with you was the end of the article…let me tell you which pages those are in case you want to skip and read that first so you know where the good parts are…starts on page 207…very very interesting.
I wanted to share since I know you have been studying end times stuff. It’s really the stuff on 207 that struck me as the rest of the paper wasn’t anything new to me as far as both views go, but page 207 was the start of something good, I think and maybe it might be helpful. Don’t know.
Thanks for the shortcut, Dawnmarie. I’ll try and get through it all, but if I can’t you’ve certainly made it easier.
God’s blessings…
Times like this, I so much miss copy and paste!!!! I retyped those pages from the PDF so you didn’t have to find what I was talking about…so here they are for you to chew on. Just more stuff to put in your brain right? 🙂
Starting from page 206 in the above link Amellenialism reconsidered:
“Opposing amillennialism are several forms of premillenniaism, including the historical and dispensational views, and postmillennialism, which Riddlebarger ably critiques in his book. Following is one form of premillennialism that appears to eliminate significant problems inherent in the alternate views:
1. Prior to the coming of Chist, demonic spirits gather the forces of evil to fight the batte of Armageddon (Rev 16:12-16). Jesus appears with the armies of heaven to vanquish his enemies (19:11-21-a depiction of the second coming of Christ).
2. At the second coming of Christ, the righteous dead are resurrected from their “sleep” in the grave and are “caught up to meet the Lord in the air,” along with the righteous living (1 Thess 4:13-18). All are given immortal bodies (1 Cor 15:51-54) and ascend to be with Chist in heaven (John 14:2-3), where they reign with Christ (Rev 20:4). This is the “first resurrection”, a bodily resurrection of all the righteous dead. The “priests of God” (v.6) consist of the righteous of all ages. The millennial reign of the saints is in heaven.
3. At the same time, the wicked living are “slain by the brightness of His coming” and by his word, “the sword coming out of His mouth.” Their dead bodies lie on earth, to be consumed by vultures (2 Thess 2:8; Rev 19:21).
4. The thousand-year reign of the saints in heaven consists of a work of judgment (Rev 20:4, alluding to Dan 7:22; cf. 1 Cor 6:2-3), perhaps examining the books to determine the justice of God’s judgments and admitting and excluding people from heaven. The saints may even have a part in sentencing the wicked.
5. The earth is in a “abysmal” state. The “great earthquake”, hail, and wrath accompanying the second advent have brokn down the cities, devastated the earth, and slain all its inhabitants (Rev 16:18-21;cf. Isa 24:19-22; Jer 4:23-27). Satan if figuratively “bound” on this planet (Rev 20:1-3), whih has been reduced to its original state of primeval chaos (Rev 2:1-2 corresponding to Gen 1:2). He can no longer deceive the nations because the wicked are all dead and the righteous are all in heaven. He is receiving the first part of his sentence: a thousand years of solitary confinement to think about his rebellion and anticipate future judgment.
6. At the end of the thousand years, the New Jerusalem, with God and the saints in it, descends to earth (Rev 21:2; 20:9). The wicked dead of all periods of history are raised to receive their final judgment (20:13,12). Satan, now loosed from solitary confinement by the resurrection of the wicked, and finding his hopes of conquest revived by the vast hosts on his side, deceives them into attempting to conquer the saints in the “beloved city,” the New Jerusalem. Then God, on his great white throne, appears before them and judges them according to their life records written in the books (vv. 11-13). Fire, which purifies the earth comes down from heaven and devours them all (vv 9, 14-15). Hell no longer exists, nor do sin and sinners, death, pain and crying (21:4)
7. God re-creates “a new heaven and a new earth” and dwells with his people forever (21:1-3). The universe is clean.
This view is elegant in its simplicity. The “souls” who reign with Christ a thousand years (20:4) are the saints who were resurrected or translated at the parousia. This view avoids the problem amillennialists encouter when explaining how Satan has been bound for the last 2,000 years when he appears to be very active. It also avoids the problem premillennialists have in explaining how unregenrate people can live together on earth with resurrected saints during the millennial reign of Christ, and how war can erupt again at it close.”
Wow, Dawnmarie, thanks for all the typing you did.
I’m different when I’m “in the dumps.” It is difficult for me to concentrate well on what I’m reading.
This is a very interesting view. I already have a few questions but I’ll chew on them awhile before I make a fool of myself.
Thank you for your prayers.
God’s blessings…
O.K., I’ll share one question I had immediately. Rev. 20:7-8 makes it appear that above summary of the millennium cannot be correct. After the thousand years, there are still thousands on earth (nations) that Satan will deceive.
God’s blessings…
I’m thinking terms like deceived the nations which are IN the four corners of the earth and the idea of they went UP on the breadth of the earth might be why the proponents of this theory are thinking these might be the souls of the resurrected wicked or maybe actually resurrected wicked that are once again deceived, rather than living people who haven’t died yet. It kind of sounds like these guys are coming up from sheol or something. That’s how I understood his thinking anyway. I’m still chewing on it too Chris.
I’m thinking we’re both going to be chewing for a long time, Dawnmarie. And I think that’s a good thing.
God’s blessings…
“I think that’s a good thing”…
Here here my friend. Here here. 😉