Found at Keith Thompson’s YouTube site:
At least start this documentary and let me know what you think.
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Chris, this is an excellent documentary film by Elliott Nesch from Holy Bible Prophecy. He is a wonderful brother in Christ who also has the following film on the emergent church:
As well as this free book on the emergent church:
Elliott is very keen for his films and books to be shared free of charge through websites, blogs and even making your own copies and sharing with others.
He also has excellent articles and is part of the Gospel Fellowships project:
So glad you found this film! I have researched the content myself after watching it a year ago. Elliott is spot on with this, and a real blessing to the Body of Christ. These films also connected me in with many excellent Christian/discernment authors including the crew at the Lighthouse Trails Research project and Pastor Gary Gilley. I cannot recommend them highly enough!!
Blessing in Christ, Sherryn
I’m listening to this documentary for a second time as I write this so that I can reply to another friend who is a blogger. I’m not that far in (about 20 minutes), but thus far I’ve found it to be very good again.
I will get to the links that you have shared this weekend if possible. Thank you for sharing!!!
Also, thanks for sharing that you have researched the content in Elliot’s film. I’ve known that Rick Warren is wolf for some time now. He keeps bad company. He’s actually had new age speakers at his church.
I’m also familiar with Lighthouse Trails and Pastor Gary Gilley. I have used them as resources in the past.
I always enjoy your comments.
Chris, as usual, the Catholic Church gets all the blame for these unfortunate “emergent” church tides.
Sorry to disappoint, but the Church has already distanced itself from these kinds of movements a long time ago
As per “mysticism” on new advent:
“Can we expect more than a knowledge of God by analogical concepts…? Here human reason cannot answer. But where reason was powerless, philosophers gave way to feeling and imagination. They dreamt of an intuition of the Divinity, of a direct contemplation and immediate possession of God. They imagined a notion of the universe and of human nature that would make possible such a union. They built systems in which the world and the human soul were considered as an emanation or part of the Divinity, or at least as containing something of the Divine essence and Divine ideas. The logical outcome was Pantheism. [the philosophy of “all is God” -Kassey]
This result was a clear evidence of error at the starting-point. The Catholic Church, as guardian of Christian doctrine, through her teaching and theologians, gave the solution of the problem. She asserted the limits of human reason: the human soul has a natural capacity (potentia obedientialis), but no exigency and no positive ability to reach God otherwise than by analogical knowledge. She condemned the immediate vision of the Beghards and Beguines (cf. Denzinger-Bannwart, “Enchiridion”, nn. 474-5), the pseudo-Mysticism of Eckhart (ibid., nn. 501-29), and Molinos (ibid., nn. 2121-88), the theories of the Ontologists (ibid., nn. 1659-65, 1891-1930), and Pantheism under all its forms (ibid., nn. 1801-5), as well as the vital Immanence and religious experience of the Modernists (ibid., nn. 2071-109). But she teaches that, what man cannot know by natural reason, he can know through revelation and faith; that what he cannot attain to by his natural power he can reach by the grace of God. He has assigned as its ultimate end the direct vision of Himself, the Beatific Vision. But this end can be reached only in the next life; in the present life we can but prepare ourselves for it…”
That said, Chris, Augustine and Thomas Aquinas both distanced themselves from from those “desert fathers’ the video refers to. Faith coupled with reason is described in “fear of the Lord is the beginning off wisdom”. (Psalms 111) – not the other way around. . Note also that those “desert fathers” existed prior to the assembled, written, published, printed “bible” we have today.
Finally, we have to be careful to distinguish and respect human thought as not the same as “mysticism.” The same end of the censor eraser can come dangerously close to condemning God’s gift of rationality and human thought generally. I for one need testimonies of the cry and sufferings of the human heart, expressions of faith found in things like music and art, narrative, magnificent paintings,and poems about God.
Please excuse me from posts of this nature in the future,Chris, and here’s praying that Protestant churches form a coalesced, solid teaching authority to address nefarious notions of ‘prosperity’ and get back to emphasizing sacrifice, loving and serving Jesus through the dear neighbor.. have a good weekend and blessings.. Kassey
I was very surprised by your comment as I didn’t recall any reference to Catholicism in this film. So, I went back and watched it again and I found out why I was surprised (I have a full page of notes on the documentary now.)
To say that the Catholic Church gets all the blame is an overstatement, to say the least.
There are a few seconds, less than 15 around the 54:45 mark, where one man references Catholicism to contemplative prayer. This is less than 1/2 of 1 percent of the entire film.
There is a very short segment, less than a minute I think around the 56:20 mark, where the desert fathers are discussed. No name is mentioned and they aren’t even called Catholic. In fact, Jewish mystics are mentioned as much as Catholic ones.
I am very familiar with Thomas Merton. He is not mentioned in this work, but he was a Catholic Trappist Monk who had no problem mixing Christianity with Zen (a form of Buddhism). He is partly responsible for the modern contemplative prayer movement that is spreading in Protestant and Catholic churches alike. If you could go back a take a typical Protestant or Catholic believer in America in 1940 and ask them about the ideas of Merton, most would have known enough to view his ideas as heretical.
The film is really about Rick Warren and the danger of his message and those like him. The last half of the movie is devoted to Rick Warren’s association with the non-Christian marketing guru Peter Drucker and to Islam.
Many names are mentioned. They would be seen as Protestants, I think; not Catholics. One even tried to keep J.F.K. from becoming President because he was Catholic (Norman Vincent Peale).
Here are some of the names:
C. Peter Wagner
Brian McLaren [Many would think his name should be higher on this list but I am listing (not perfectly) in order of appearance in the film.]
There were others but none of them were Catholic.
I’m not listing these names to make the differences between the historic beliefs of Catholics and Protestants any less important. We have discussed the major difference and I think that we are both satisfied with what we believe.
I’m listing these names to show that there is very little about Catholics related to the Emergent church in this film.
As you know, I leave the criticism of Catholics to others who know much more than I do. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think The Reformation was essential.
Well, Mr. Warren wants a new reformation. These are his words: We are “on the verge of a new reformation.” Rick Warren wants a social reformation, not a spiritual one. I think this is one of the key points of this film.
Rick Warren wants a future world of “Religious pluralism.”
I would love the world to be at peace. The truth is that it won’t happen until the fulfillment of the final 3 chapters of the Bible.
In the end, Jesus and peace will triumph. Of the world we are living in He said (Matthew 10):
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.”
I’m glad that Augustine and Thomas Aquinas both distanced themselves from those “desert fathers’ the video refers to. I’m sure they would have distanced themselves from Thomas Merton and those like him, also.
As always, Kassey, I learned something from you. I appreciate your comment; I just don’t agree with your main premise.
I do, however, agree with your final statement:
I am also “praying that Protestant churches form a coalesced, solid teaching authority to address nefarious notions of ‘prosperity’ and get back to emphasizing sacrifice, loving and serving Jesus through the dear neighbor.”
I mostly think we have to get back to the truths of the simple gospel.
Thanks for your kind wishes.
I hope you have a great weekend, also.
I have been struggling on my blog with folks who have a very low view of repentance. They do not believe that repentance is necessary for the new birth. They think that is works based salvation, which of course is totally wrong. The same people think you can still live in sin and be saved at the same time. Sad,
It is very sad. I can’t remember which post it’s in on this blog, but I’ve shared some sobering numbers about this exact issue.
Barna did a poll awhile back that found that 70% of American Christians believe that they are going to heaven based on their works. If the numbers are even close to these, we will continue to find folks like this coming to our blogs. We must continue to post things that speak the truth, as I know you do.
God’s blessings my friend…
I found the video shared a lot of good info that is pertinent. There always has been heretical movements and Mr. Warren’s is not really based on Christian faith except he uses the name recognition to push his marketing ploy.
On repentance, i agree with you both of course on the significance of the doctrine. That is what sticks out so blatantly and ignored by all mentioned in the video.
Any and all works based salvation is a heresy. Can you imagine standing before Father God and saying, “Well i had to help Jesus, cause He did need some help with His offer of salvation.”
Basically I have wondered why our Catholic friends still have Jesus on the cross. There is a significance behind my statement. It is not meant to be offending, just a question involving the RCC’s doctrines.
“Can you imagine standing before Father God and saying, ‘Well i had to help Jesus, cause He did need some help with His offer of salvation.’”
…an excellent assessment, Manny.
Mr. Warren and those he has influenced towards a works driven purpose are sorely mistaken if they think they will be saved by them. I know that faith without works is dead. When a Christian has the fruits of the Spirit, he/she can’t help but do good things.
I always appreciate your comments my friend.
Hi Chris, I appreciate your feedback and your correction of my interpretation of the claim in the video. I am familiar with Merton, and it is interesting also that none of my pastors have referred to his writings or quotes.
After much loafing around, I stumbled on this statement by Anthony Clark, a writer of “The Rock” magazine concerning Thomas Merton, which includes a very interesting admission that Eastern spirituality could be trying to reinvent itself in the church.
“Benedict XVI has expressed serious concerns regarding the appropriateness of approaches such as Merton’s. In fact he predicted that Buddhism, with its “autoerotic” type of spirituality, would replace Marxism as the principle antagonist of the Catholic faith, for the very non-dualist ideas it espouses deny the Christian belief in a Creator who is separate from His creation. [such as in pantheism] The transcendence that Zen Buddhism offers is one of non-distinction, a state free from, as Benedict notes, the imposition of religious obligations. In the end, to turn to the ideas of Zen is to turn away from any need for a personal savior. We save ourselves in Buddhism, but only Christ saves in Christianity.”
Anyway, please pardon the source, and please know that I find this statement startling because I have not encountered anything of this nature in any parish I have attended.
thanks again Chris , see ya Wed Kassey
I’m so glad to hear from you, Kassey.
I am surprised that you have not encountered anything like this in your parishes. It is very prevalent in Protestant churches as the video explains.
It is interesting that you mention Zen here as I am having a conversation with a Buddhist at another blog. You, like me, are always interested in another view though I know my view is constantly changing based on my understanding of God’s Word. That “stated,” my view will be a Biblical view and no other. Nothing else even comes close to making sense to me and the Bible tells a narrative that only God could have created.
You know I don’t agree with the popes on many issues. I am with Benedict XVI on his concerns about Mr. Merton. My focus on this blog is within my own “church” (most of the time) as you have probably noted. It is enough to keep me busy.
I always appreciate it when you stop by.
God’s blessings and maybe God will save a baby tomorrow…or 2?
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